Serpil Midyatli (SPD) and Pegah Edalatian (Greens) demand that politics be more diverse. To do this, they ignore strategic debates.

27 percent of the population is of immigrant origin, but only 14.5 percent of the Greens have no surveys; Photo: Christoph Wojtyczka/imago

taz: Mrs. Edalatian, Mrs. Midyatli, your holidays are considered very white. As politicians with a migratory background, do you sometimes feel distanced from the Greens and the SPD?

Pegah Edalatian: When I was a child I asked my father why I didn't have a German passport. He explained to me that there is a new party in the Hessian state parliament calling for a different citizenship law. That convinced me, which is why I later joined the Green Party and never felt like an outsider. But yes, members with a migration background are also underrepresented here. In society their share is 27 percent, among our elected representatives it is only 14.5 percent and in the Bundestag as a whole it is 11 percent. Compared to other parties, we are more diverse, but action is necessary.

Why is that?

Edalatian: In my opinion, second-generation people who have German citizenship are more politically active than people without a migration background. But they are mainly involved in civil society and feel little addressed by the parties. We want to change that.

What do you think, Mrs. Midyatli?

Serpil Midyatli: I have been a Social Democrat since 2000. For me the reason was also the citizenship law: at that time Roland Koch and the CDU collected signatures against the Turks. At the beginning the SPD was already a very white group. When you walked into the room at district party conferences, everyone turned around. Things are definitely different today. Maybe that has something to do with my job as state president: the role model role means people feel addressed and engaged.

Has the SPD also recorded how many members have an immigration background?

Midyatli: No. But I have an overview of the state associations and parliamentary groups and we are also clearly underrepresented.

You want to change that together. As?

Midyatli: At different levels. When people talk about the migrant society, it always has negative connotations. But many people have lived here for a long time and are part of this country. We agree: we need a modern, more diverse and realistic narrative. Therefore, as a first step, we invited all our elected officials and ministers from the federal and state governments to a networking meeting. We want to think together about how we can together promote this positive image, this new German us.

Edalatian: Exactly. If people with a migration background are always talked about as if they were a problem, then they become alienated. People with and without a migratory background have to overcome challenges together, such as pensions, education and health.

Do you want to have a kind of debate about the dominant culture in reverse?

Midyatli: In Germany we already have a guiding culture: the Basic Law. I do not believe in a new debate in this direction. But we also have to talk about racism and exclusion, the greatest barriers to integration of all. Any person of migrant origin, whether a teacher or a cleaner, can tell several stories. Pegah and I also bonded over this shared experience. Our meeting will also focus on the projects we agreed to in the coalition agreement. Finally they have to implement traffic lights.

Edalatian: We must ensure that people of migrant origin are better legally protected against discrimination, for example by amending the General Law on Equal Treatment. Because discrimination hinders social participation. We want to pass a participation law for greater participation and, finally, the Law on the Promotion of Democracy, that is, the continuation of funding for diversity projects or the fight against extremism.

Is there also an obligation for people who immigrate to Germany?

Edalatian: You are not responsible for paying it. But it is empowering to stand up for yourself by voting or running for office. That was one reason for becoming a politician: not to be someone to whom something happens, but to help shape it. The majority of society and parties can support this.

As?

Edalatian: At Los Verdes we have had a diversity statute for more than three years with the aim of improving the representation of people of immigrant origin and other minorities and consolidating knowledge about discrimination at all levels of the party. We specifically train people with experience in racism in our party to get involved through additional training and networking meetings. The promotion of self-defense and networks is extremely important.

Midyatli: For us, the first thing that matters is how we address people and how we organize, for example, election campaigns. We must not think about us and you, but we must think about society as a whole from the beginning.

What barriers prevent people of migrant origin from participating politically?

Edalatian: Language is a problem for people who do not have German as their first language. And then it's also a question of resources. People of immigrant origin have to overcome more barriers in their lives; This also applies to single-parent families or people with chronic illnesses. That requires strength. I personally had the feeling that I had to first work on my own affairs, such as studying and working, before becoming a party member. Perhaps one of the reasons why I was not in the Green Youth either.

Midyatli: Now that you say it: I wasn't in the Jusos either.

When it comes to questions like this, aren't factors like income and education level a bigger obstacle than immigration origin?

Midyatli: Social origin is, of course, one of the biggest obstacles and social advancement is generally difficult. My parents were illiterate for a long time and that meant I had fewer opportunities than others. But the migratory background makes it even more difficult to reach the top. The backpack you carry with you is full of even more bricks.

Edalatian: German politics has a classism problem. Most Germans do not have any academic qualifications. However, this group has very limited representation in the Bundestag. There is an obvious gap there. Therefore, people of immigrant origin who come from the working class suffer double discrimination. On the contrary, this means that when the issue of class is addressed, many who have a migration background are also addressed.

In the fight for supremacy in the centre-left, we often see competitive behavior between the SPD and the Greens. Are you overriding your parties' strategies through your collaboration?

Edalatian: The shift to the right makes it necessary for us to work together across party lines. Leading by example is more important than regular competition.

So why not make it a traffic light event?

Edalatian: The FDP was warmly invited, but was unable to organize it. I hope you will join us next time.

They probably didn't want to be seen in the red and green so soon before the party conference.

Midyatli: It's probably more because there is always a lot to do before a federal party conference.

The traffic light policy creates obstacles for your concerns. The tightening of the asylum law has led to the departure of people with experience as refugees from the Green Party.

Edalatian: As a spokesperson for diversity policy, I regret these deviations. But I'm glad the contact continues. People of immigrant origin are very heterogeneous and the reactions to the tightening were very different. Ultimately, we return to a crucial point: we want a social debate that speaks positively about the immigration society and does not see migration simply as a matter of conflict.

Mrs. Midyatli, you nod. To what extent did it bother you that a Social Democratic chancellor, precisely, said last year that deportations should finally be carried out on a large scale?

Midyatli: That bothered me a lot and I said it clearly to Olaf Scholz. The people who must be deported are only a small group. On the other hand, there are millions of people, some of whom are already in their third generation, but who are not seen. This bothers us and many in the communities. They have the feeling that politics only concerns one group and that its tone is increasingly harsh.

Do you have the feeling that your criticism of the Chancellor had an effect?

Midyatli: Olaf Scholz did not repeat it again.

What other concerns do you often encounter when you, as a politician, speak with people of migrant origin?

Midyatli: Often it is not about immigration policy in the strict sense, but about other issues that also have a strong impact on these people. Many people of immigrant origin, for example, have benefited from the minimum wage. Other concerns include affordable housing, good transport links and enough teachers for schools.

In some immigrant communities there is currently a lack of understanding about Germany's policy in the Middle East and the federal government's solidarity with Israel. How much damage does this cause to your goal of mobilizing more people of immigrant origin for your parties?

Edalatian: It doesn't harm my cause. But it is obvious that we have to create space to clarify different perceptions as democrats. I have the impression that in our society there is a lot of talk about people, but there is little space to talk to each other.

Midyatli: Entering into dialogue is generally the task of politics. But I will also say very clearly that not everyone is welcome in the SPD. You have to share our values. For me, the first thing is to be a social democrat and then to have an immigrant background. If you don't like our positions on certain issues at all, just look elsewhere. Perhaps it would be better if people of migrant origin were distributed equally in all democratic parties. Then you would see how diverse the migrant society is and how absurd the typecasting is.

In the upcoming federal election campaign, parties are unlikely to nominate chancellor candidates with immigration backgrounds. Isn't the time for that yet?

Edalatian: The time has always come and at some point Germany will also have a chancellor of immigrant origin.

And when will the SPD be ready for this?

Midyatli: For us, the question of the next federal elections does not arise because we have a chancellor.

And for the next one?

Edalatian: Maybe Serpil is the SPD candidate. That would be fine.